Numbers 27:15-21. Then Moses spoke to the LORD, saying: 16 “Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation, 17 who may go out before them and go in before them, who may lead them out and bring them in, that the congregation of the LORD may not be like sheep which have no shepherd.” 18 And the LORD said to Moses: “Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him; 19 set him before Eleazar the priest and before all the congregation, and inaugurate him in their sight. 20 And you shall give some of your authority to him, that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient. 21 He shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall inquire before the LORD for him by the judgment of the Urim. At his word they shall go out, and at his word they shall come in, he and all the children of Israel with him—all the congregation.”
People were filled with the Holy Spirit thousands of years before Pentecost. And people knew and kept the Torah before it was given at Mt. Sinai.
they had the holy spirit but were not "filled" with the HS in either the amount nor the inclusivenes found after the day of pentecost. notice they still refered judgement to the urmin. only one point, but i hate to type. btw; which bible are you using?
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting, cruft!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that's correct. Certainly believers were more aware of the indwelling of the Spirit as a phenomenon after Pentecost, but I don't think there was either a qualitative or quantitative difference otherwise. I'm thinking of Pentecost much like the discovery of physical properties of light. (I realize that the study of light was/is a long process of human effort and that Pentecost and Sinai were singular events.) As we learned about light waves and photons and relativity, we have become far more aware of the effects of light. We can use it to do some amazing things. We didn't change the nature of light, but we became more aware of what it is and what it can do. Shavuot at Mt Sinai and Shavuot in the upper room are similar in that both the Torah and the Holy Spirit pre-existed those events and were fully available to anyone. However, after those divine revelations we were given a clearer understanding of the nature of God and the relationship he wants with his people. Although the Torah existed and was God's standard of behavior before Sinai, people could only be systematic about it afterward. I think it's the same principle with the Holy Spirit and Pentecost.
I'm also not convinced the Urim and Thummim were used because the people using them were not filled with the Holy Spirit. God uses many different avenues to convey his will. People who are filled with the Spirit don't suddenly become omniscient. They still need to ask others for advice, to pray, to read the Scriptures, and to listen to the prophets. They still need confirmation of God's will from more than a single source. I suspect that the Urim and Thummim were not used for casual or everyday questions, but only for weighty matters of state that would require a more objectively verifiable determination of God's will than a man's word. Hence, their use by the High Priest for the benefit of the national leader.
(I think I quoted the NKJV in this post. Sometimes I use the MKJV, ESV, or KJV.)
I'm new to your blog and have no desire to wade thru all previous postings so be patient. are you a messianic jew? if not there will be only a banging of heads and must move on. words matter so am using stern's 'complete jewish bible' as the ones you mention have no concept of 'idiom'. look forward to conversing but without a common vocabulary not much could even beging to be discussed. that would be sad as you obviously have thought much thru and iron sharpens iron.
ReplyDeleteif wasn't so lazy and this wasn't 2:30 am should have looked up your profile. your statement of faith shows your bielf on Jeshua. great! we'll discuss.
ReplyDeleteI am a Messianic believer. I prefer not to use the term "Messianic Jew" because I'm not Jewish. For your purposes, though, I believe the answer is yes. ;-)
ReplyDeleteJohn 7:39 "now he said this about the spirit, whom those who trusted in him were to recieve later-the spirit had not been give because Yeshua had not been glorified". there is much said about the HS in john which could be stated but then you wouldn't have the joy of being ministered to yourself by him. read john starting here with focus on the hs and enjoy. it appears that there is a catagorical change not just a quantitaive one. but there isn't much wriiten of the hs as we are to focus on Yeshua. that said there are glimmers of him thru out both the ot and expanding greatly in the nt. btw; spend the bucks and get d. stern "complete jewish bible". happy fourth.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Cruft. I have Stern's translation and sometimes read it. I don't usually quote it here, though, because I get lazy too. It's easier to copy and paste. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI freely admit that my understanding of both Scripture and the Holy Spirit (and just about everything else) is imperfect. I have heard it taught that the primary difference between the OT and the NT lies in which aspect of God is most conspicuous or active: the Father in the OT and the Spirit in the NT with Yeshua taking center stage for a brief period in the middle. I'll call "maybe" on that.